January 23, 1964

Published in Sant Bani Magazine, December-January 2000

This conversation between the Master (Sant Kirpal Singh Ji) and His children took place at Mr. Khanna’s house in Washington, D.C., on the evening of January 23, 1964.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: It would be better if you were to ask questions; then we will talk on it. The general talks are routine, you see. Any particular points which you would like to have clarified, you can. Any of you?

Question: Sometimes it’s hard to distinguish when we are meditating and something comes to us, between what is a machination of the mind and what is truly a spiritual enlightenment. For instance, when we see ourselves inside or we will see things that are of a very mundane level that we are preoccupied with every day. I will sit in meditation; sometimes I don’t seem to have any control over these things. I don’t want control over them.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: Your question is mixed up with so many things. What in particular do you want?

Question: I want to know how to distinguish, or are we to distinguish, when these forms come to us.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: The main thing is, whatever form comes within, repeat the Five Names which are charged. Anything negative will eventually go away. Sometimes the Negative Power affects you with wrong things: then repeat the Five Names. For that purpose you have been given a safeguard against all of these things.

Question: I asked you – I think it was in California – sometimes in meditation I have this terrific vibration which I can’t seem to control. And You said not to think of the body. But sometimes it’s so very strong that I have to stop meditating. I get so nervous, and I feel as if I was being electrocuted or something. What can I do to stop that?

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: Just do it in the right way, if you do it in the right way and don’t think of the body, there will be no trouble, if anything like that happens, leave it off, that’s all. And sit in the right way.

Question: It’s so powerful that I can’t help but think of the body.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: But it’s not like that every day.

Question: No, no, but at times. And then it rises to my throat, and I feel as if I was choking.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: No, no. That is due to the wrong way of doing the practice. Prana is involved.

Question: But I don’t do any yoga techniques anymore.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: Choking of the throat cannot come unless prana is involved. Breathing is involved. First it goes slowly, at intervals; then it chokes you. That is the wrong way of doing it.

Question: But I don’t do anything since I was initiated by You.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: These are involved: you don’t do it purposely. While you are doing the practice, sometimes breathing is unknowingly involved; then naturally that choking arises.

Question: But you know, I’ll tell you something strange. I have had that experience mostly when I have meditated when You have been there. Now, in Vancouver in the morning meditation, I sat right next to You, and it was so terrific, I got that power so much that it was terrible. I mean, it was wonderful, but it was almost terrifying. And it happens more when You’re around.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: It means that when I am around, there is radiation. The soul is withdrawn in a hurry. But your thought is not altogether free of the body consciousness. That is why breathing is involved and there is choking. And sometimes it happens out of emotions, too: emotions sometimes bring on choking.

Look here, let us give an example in a worldly way. You are going to meet your friend whom you love: perhaps it is your father, mother, brother, or anybody. And he wishes you to come alone. And even though you are going to your friend, you take so many children and other things with you. You are going to meet him and there is no time for you to speak to him. And he will also not be able to devote his whole time to you, you see? This is a worldly way of thinking. Now you have to go to God. God is all alone. Is it not so? He has no father, no mother, no brother. So naturally He wants everybody to come to Him all alone. He does not want you to take anything with you: no worldly things; not even your body; not even your intellect. He says, “You come alone.” Whatever little time you devote in this way will bear forth full fruit.

When we are sitting we are not to think of outside things, not to think of the body, not to think of the breathing, not even to think of the thinking. We should be physically still and intellectually still, too. If you do it in the right way, there will be no trouble. You see?

Question: But if you’re intellectually still, you’re repeating the Five Sacred Names?

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: Those become automatic. When you think of their meaning, your intellect works. If you don’t think of their meaning, after a few days they become automatic. Their charging helps. You are told not to think of the meanings, although the meanings have been given to you. You are not to visualize; you are not to think of the meaning of the Names. They will go on automatically. The charging helps. Thinking with the intellect will come in: this word means this; this plane has this and that kind of thing. Simply look sweetly and be fully absorbed. It is a question of the seeing of the soul, of the attention. Attention is the outward expression of the soul. Just as the rays of the sun enliven and enlighten the whole world, similarly the rays of the attention (the attention is the rays of the soul) enlighten the whole body. If those rays are withdrawn, the body will be dark. When the sun sets, all rays are withdrawn and there is darkness. Similarly, the body will be darkened, and there will be no thought of the body. It is only your attention that gives you the feeling of the body. So if you do it in the right way, you will have no trouble. Errors do creep in automatically, generally. Then trouble arises.

Question: Master, may I ask a question?

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: Yes, please.

Question: After you are drawn into the Radiant Form of the Master within and you want to go higher, does the Radiant Form of the Master dissolve into the Word or Naam or does the Radiant Form of the Master continue and remain in the higher regions?

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: In the lower planes it continues, but absorption comes at every plane. When you devote your whole attention into the Form of the Master, you sometimes become absorbed, but that continues in further stages. Absorption is better. It does become that Light. You are Light; you become one; you forget; but you are conscious all the same. It does come at every step. Ultimately it becomes One, and there is no Form when you are absorbed into Sat Naam. Then Sat Naam takes you to the stages where there is final absorption. Otherwise, that Form continues to work in the Radiant Form on the different planes.

Question: Master, I’d like to know when You are coming back again.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: Who, I? I will never go. (Laughs) Why are you sending me? I won’t go. Physically I have to go, one way or the other. You are also not at home all day long.

Now you are not in your home: physically you are not at home, but your thought is there. Is it not so? So, I have come and God willed it. I have no wishes.

Question: Master, what plane are you in when you see the golden Light?

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: That is just the beginning. But in that golden Light, the Form of the Master appears. That is not the lowest.

Question: That is not the lowest?

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: The Form generally appears in golden Light.

Question: Is that the third plane or the fourth plane?

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: It is just the beginning. The Master’s Form appears only when you rise above Trikuti. Yet even before that it does manifest to show that He is with you. Sometimes when you sit in a trance, the Form comes; but generally the Form appears when you cross the big star and the moon. Before that it manifests to give consolation to the initiated that I am with you, the that Power is with you.

Question: Master, if before one is initiated, one begins by trying to honest with oneself, and although you may feel that so far as the rules are concerned the diet or something this would be no problem, but within yourself you still know that you do have doubts, would you welcome into initiation one who is quite willing to admit that there is doubt, but wants to try?

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: Doubt? What sort of doubt? About the theory?

Question: Well, I don’t know.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: No, no. You must know. Clarify your doubts: in what way?

Question: I suppose, for the uninitiated, it’s the fear of the unknown or a new experience.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: No, no. My point is: first try to understand the theory. Whatever you cannot understand, let that be clarified. Then take up the way. Full conviction will arise when you see things for your own self, when you are intellectually satisfied that these are the teachings of all Masters. Take it up as an experimental measure. Then, if you get something, naturally you must be convinced. Man cannot be convinced unless he sees things for his own self, and he testifies himself.

Question: Then, if you are not certain that you are prepared and that you have answered your questions….

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: I tell you, I tell you. The man in whose heart this question of the mystery of life has entered IS fit. It is God’s grace that this question has arisen. That day is the greatest in a man’s life on which this question of the mystery of life enters his heart. It cannot be stamped out unless it is solved. That this question has arisen shows that God wants to give you what you hunger for. “There is food for the hungry and water for the thirsty.” Now, there is the question of the ethical life.

In the old days, there was the rule that when people came to the feet of the Masters, they kept them for a long time, and when they saw that they were fully developed, then they gave them the initiation. It is said that one King of Bokhara went to Kabir and lived with him for about six years. He was very obedient and dutiful. Mata Loi was serving with Kabir Sahib. She recommended the king to Kabir: “Here’s the king; he has been here with us for six long years; he is very quiet, very obedient. Why don’t you give him initiation?” Kabir told her that he was not yet ready. And Loi asked him, “Well, why is that please? He is very quiet, very obedient and in every way amicable. Why do you say that he is not fit?” Kabir said, “All right. When he goes out of the house, hide yourself in a place where he cannot see you and throw all the refuse of the house over his head and just hear what he says.” When she threw it on him, he said, “Had this happened in my own country, I would have taken care of this!” Then Kabir asked her, “What did you find?” She told him that the kingship had not gone because he still said, “Had I been in my own country I would have done this and that thing.” So then another five or six years passed by. Then Kabir said, “Well, now he is ready.” Loi said, “Well, I find no difference between the first time and now.” Kabir said, “Now again, when he leaves the house, throw all this washroom filth over his head. Then hear what he says,” When she did so, he said, “O God, I am even worse than that! Thank you.”

So, man must be made. Man making is difficult: the finding of God is not difficult. Now the times have changed. They are so materialistic: who is going to stay with the Master for years and abide by what He says? There is no time to spare and sit at the feet of the Masters. Even when they have some difficulty in their meditation, people say, “Oh, I have to go to work.” I say, “Can’t you take one or two hours’ leave?”

The times have changed in the way that those who have got hunger in their minds are taken up by the Masters. The Masters take up the work of preparation of making a man as well as giving him the way, at the same time, and the maintenance of diaries for self-introspection from day to day is prescribed. The Masters give seekers the experience then and there, so that when they come in contact with that higher Light and Sound Principle, it will grow familiar and help them while they are at the same time weeding out all imperfections from day to day. They just say, “Take heed that the Light which is within you is not darkened.”

So the present times have changed, and those who have an inkling, a desire, are put on the way. They are given some experience, with the grace of God, to start with. Otherwise people are not going to believe you. “Go on doing it, and you will have it after you do that. Do it, go on, do it. All help will be granted to you.” People have been coming to me who have been initiated somewhere. They had been putting in meditation time of two, three or four hours daily. With all that, they got nothing, and they left it. If you get something to start with, then you can develop. So this present time has changed: the work of man-making is started side by side with the giving of the experience on the very first day. And when you see the experience – have the experience yourself – then I think you have something to stand on. There is no question of doubt. If doubt remains, it is only about how to live up to what has been given.

Those who are in the intellectual sphere must understand the why and the wherefore of things; otherwise they won’t take them up. Furthermore, they will require some evidence from the past Masters and also must see whether it appeals to their common sense. If they are intellectually satisfied, then they take it up as an experimental measure. Even then, they are very skeptical: this may not be for them. But when they have something to start with, there will be more. The maintenance of the diaries is necessary to “take heed that the light” – whatever is given you at the time of initiation – “is not darkened.” This is how matters stand in the present days.

Question: Master, this might seem an odd question: but, for instance, I have just recently moved to Denver, as I told you in Texas, and we don’t have a group there of Satang; Mr. —— and I would like to start one.

We meditate in my little apartment he and his mother and I, together. Does it do any harm if you go to another group that meditates? I mean, would there be any conflict of vibrations or anything if we went and meditated with another group?

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: What group?

Question: Well, for instance, Self-Realization. They have a group in Denver where they just meditate and they have asked us to come for meditation. I’m not doing, naturally, any of the techniques: I gave them up several years ago when I was initiated by You. But I was wondering if there would be any conflict of vibration or anything.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: The point is, did I tell you not to go?

Question: No, you didn’t.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: Now, a further thing: if you go there, don’t follow their way of meditation, but do your own. That’s one thing.

Question: Well, that’s what I mean – that I can go and meditate in my own way.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: Well, look here, that’s one thing. The other thing is, when you – those who are on the same way – sit together, there will be more radiation. Do you follow my point? There is a radiation from the Master, too.

Question: From Yogananda, you mean, their Master? Would it affect me?

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: Oh no, no, I am talking about something else. When you go to somebody, don’t change your mode of meditation. And if you sit with those who are doing the same meditation, there will be more radiation. Do you follow me? I never stopped you from going any place.

Question: No. I didn’t know if there would be a conflict of vibration – if there was any from their…

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: Don’t you follow now what I said? If you think of Swami Yogananda there, then there will be conflict. Because Yogananda is not there. Do you see?

Question: That follows the principle then, Master, “Where two or more are gathered together in my name.”

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: Listen – “In my name.”

Question: That’s right – “in my name.”

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: You’ve got it. I don’t mean in any way to reflect on Swami Yogananda. I don’t mean that. One is a living force – radiation – going on throughout the world. When one or two sit in His name, there is radiation. Those who are higher, who have left their bodies, have to work through the human pole working on the human plane. Do you see? That is the law.13 I never stopped anybody from going anywhere. But I did suggest to you that when there is a group meeting, you must attend it, because you will benefit by the radiation.

Question: Well, I hadn’t gone, but I was just wondering about it.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: Now the matter is clear. But I never stopped you from going there. Understand the principles, you see. Truly speaking: I will tell you what the old Egyptians used to do. They gave initiation; they gave the way. They did not give the experience, I tell you. They just put them on the way intellectually and then told them to remain quiet for two long years. They were called mystes. And by putting in two years regularly on the way, naturally the way opened up; sometimes there were flashes. When the inner way was opened, they were called epopteias. Now the door is opened the very first day! You see the light; you have some experience.

The best thing is, when you are initiated, don’t talk to anyone. Work for your daily livelihood. As for the rest, you need not talk to anyone. Talk to your Master. We talk to others. What loss is there? You talk to others: you want to show your superiority to others. Egoism is there, and you lose. Suppose, in a worldly way, you have a friendship with somebody, a love for somebody: you wouldn’t dare to let anybody know about it. Is it not so? Why? This is love. Why should you broadcast your love for God? You only want someone who can guide you. And it is the Master who can guide you. He does not say that you should leave your work. Earn your livelihood, bring up and nourish your children, keep up your body, and go on with it. Let the wild flower grow in darkness. We throw seeds anywhere: “I am doing it”; “I see that I am in a very intoxicated state.” Others naturally ask why. You say, “Well, when I sit in meditation, this and that appears.” Their eyes are on you. And you have not yet become perfect. What happens? They take you as the ideal. You stand between them and the Master. Where will you go? The man who follows you and takes you as a wrong ideal is first doomed, and your progress is retarded. This is a very critical point.

In a worldly way, when you are engaged or betrothed to somebody, you think only of him. Don’t have any interest in anybody. Go on with it. You will find that sometimes people who are progressing begin to tell one another, “It is like this.” The result is that their progress is lessened. And you will find many who say, “We had more progress before; now we have less.” And what is the reason for that? Do you follow my point? This is to be followed by everybody.

When you are given it, go to the highest. Let others be the ones to say it. Then it’s all right. If you have, for instance, a little water with you, and you begin to sprinkle it, what happens? Be in contact with the perennial source. Then thousands – millions – may come. Then you become a conscious co-worker, conscious that it is not you doing it, but God doing it. These are the little things, I think, that stand in every man’s way. Those who have a little experience – for instance, they sometimes see Master within – are, in a day or two, talking about it. Sometimes the Negative Power appears, and they are misguided. Some things come true, others become wrong.

I sometimes get letters from people who write: “Oh, now the Master within me will guide me.” I tell them, “All right, the Master is within you. If He guides you, write to me. Get it confirmed in writing by me.” And the result is that those who follow them are retarded. Do you see?

I don’t see why people are after becoming a Master. They may have that ideal before them, but they have not become Masters. When they become Masters, then let them say they are Masters. Even then they won’t say it. Those who are Masters, don’t say, “We are Masters.” They say, “It is God’s power working. It is the Father in me doing it.” They never say, “I am doing it.” The son of man is differentiated from the God in man. But others, who have just a little experience, exert themselves.

This is one of the causes of division in the groups. Some follow this man; some follow that man. The result is that there is a split. There is no progress. And this has also been the cause of dissension in the group, I tell you. I have watched it. Some begin to rule; still others are forceful; and naturally others disbelieve them. Then the dissension starts and the whole progress is retarded. And that becomes a bad example for others.

When you are put on the way, see where you are. Go up! Let people see only when you are in full bloom. Do you see? Don’t broadcast your seeds. They will be eaten up by sparrows. Those who look to you will be having faith in you instead of the Master. They will think, “He is also as good as the Master.” The result is, that since you are not yet perfect, something wrong will come out of you; and, naturally, the whole thing will be very badly affected.

When you are initiated, simply go on. You have been given the diary to keep. Remain in contact. If God wills it, He may make each one of you a Master. It is a selection from God, not from the men underneath! It is not a matter of voting, as you would select a minister or president. It is the God overhead. It is a commission from God. The soul trembles at considering the duty that lies on the shoulders of a Master. People think it a great privilege because they sometimes consider that other people have faith in them, and that becomes a source of income, too. The result is that the one who places himself in this position is spoiled. His progress is retarded, and the progress of those who follow him is also retarded. Their ideal is changed. It is a very dangerous way.

When you see the Master within, talk to Him. All right. Then remain in touch. Even then, I tell you, even if the Master speaks within you, you can never think: let your Master go and you remain. You see?

Question: I see the Master within sometimes, but He never looks at me. He is either sitting in meditation or with His head bowed or something.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: Just go into your diary, please. You will find the answer there. He is a very strict judge, I tell you; He does not spare me. (laughter) Surely, I must be truthful. Be a hard taskmaster: introspect yourself. When we write the diary, we make allowances. Treat yourself like a hard taskmaster.

Question: That’s the thing that has always confused me about the diary. That’s why – really, I’m not making excuses – but that’s why I haven’t kept it.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: What?

Question: Because how can you be sure that you are being honest with yourself when you put down these things?

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: I tell you, look here. When you are told to do a thing by a Master, why do you raise questions? That’s the first thing. If you don’t understand something, ask Him. Why do you discontinue? That’s the first thing, straight off. There is some reason for it.

The mind is a very cunning friend. He will deceive you. He says, “Well, look here, you cannot give all your imperfections. You are telling lies. Don’t do it.” You see? “Wait,” he says. “When you become perfect, only then do it.” Both of you are caught. The point is, in the beginning you won’t find so many imperfections within you. The more you go into it, the more you will find from day to day. Those that become more numerous already exist, but we are not aware of them. Do you follow my point?

First your mind had you think: “I am telling lies; I should not do it.” Then it made you leave off doing your diary. When a thief is in the room, mind that, I tell you, he will try to deter your attention to someone else. The thief says, “Oh, here goes the thief; there goes the thief.” He never lets your attention be drawn to him.

So the mind is a very cunning thief in the form of a true friend.

He is like a very sympathetic man: “Look here, why do you send in the diaries? You must become perfect first. Then send the diary – not now.” Do you see? Master said: “Do it.” You disobey the orders of the Master and obey the dictates of your mind. If there is something that you don’t follow, ask Him. There is something behind it.

At the start, I know quite fully well that you cannot note down all the imperfections of the day. Do you know Pelman’s System of Memory, the system described as “How to Develop Memory”? That is called Pelman’s System of Memory. Think of what you had been doing all throughout the day from the morning when you arose: “Oh yes, I got up; I answered the call of nature; I had a bath and some food; I went to work; work was finished; and I came home.” One or two events might have come to your notice. But when you got up, what were the thoughts striking your mind?

What others struck you while going to answer the call of nature, while bathing and afterward? That requires going into.

The more you go into it, the more thoughts you will find. In that way, one’s memory is strengthened without any payment. And furthermore, our level of criterion of distinguishing right from wrong is also changed.

The more you learn and go into the scriptures, the more your angle of vision is changed. For instance, in the beginning it might be: “He told me lies, so I slapped his face. Oh, I did the right thing. It was tit for tat.” That’s your angle of vision. You see? Later you may note: “Oh, he called me names. All right.” When you grow, you realize that when someone calls you names or tells you something wrong and you also call him names, the wrong multiplies: he tells you one thing, you say two, then comes four, then eight – like that. If you had not returned the wrong, it would have remained only one. Your angle of vision is changed, is it not? Even if you don’t speak and somebody has thought evil of you, you may feel at heart: “Oh, he’s a bad man.” You have a reaction. These feelings have to be noted.

There are two things: first, as you go into it, you will find a greater number of shortcomings; and further, the angle of vision is changed. This causes the shortcomings to become still more numerous. If they grow in number, it means you’re progressing, I tell you: you know how many shortcomings are within you. Then, when you weed them out, they go down in number. When they are consumed, if you reflect, you can read others’ minds, you can see what is going on, on the other side of the wall. The purpose of maintaining the diaries is very high, I tell you.

Don’t follow the dictates of the mind. If you follow the Master 100 per cent, only then can you have the full mystery solved. We only follow what we care to, modified by the dictates of the mind. Some follow the Master 10 per cent, some 20 per cent or 40 per cent: nobody obeys 100 per cent. This is the one thing to be learned. Then when something comes up, you will say to yourself: “Oh, yes, He is within me; how can I deceive Him?” Your angle of vision will be changing; and when you are changing that way, by outer self-introspection and by coming into contact with that Power within, you’ll progress like anything.

Sometimes when Master’s Form appears, He is showing His back; sometimes He keeps quiet; sometimes He is very happy; sometimes He talks to you. If He turns away His face, it mean’s there’s something wrong. We don’t know why. The diary is meant for a very high purpose.

These certain things are not given in regular talks. When you ask something, you get to the bottom of it and find out what is what. Each man has practically the same problem, perhaps in a little modified form.

If you keep up your diaries regularly for three or four months, like a hard taskmaster, you’ll change. Send me the diaries blank. What greater concession do you want? Send them to me blank, and I will accept them. How long will you dare to send them to me blank? – that’s the point. You cannot send them that way.

The mind, I tell you, is a cunning thief in the form of a friend. He will deceive you in a very noble way; he appears to be very friendly. But ultimately you’ll see that you are let down. When you follow, follow the dictates of Master.

Question: Maharaji, now you just gave very good examples, mostly concerning the thoughts that we have.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: Thoughts are very potent, you see.

Question: Yes, well, there is, of course, pride and envy and jealousy and resentment towards others and thinking badly about others; and, of course, purity or chastity in word, thought and deed. You’re sort of leading us very well; and I sometimes sit over this sheet, and I think: now what else is there that I have done wrong? And I’m just sometimes missing a clue. Is there anything else you would like to lead us to?

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: That is just putting in time for meditation – coming in contact with the Light and Sound Principle within. That is what is wanted. That will help you; you will have more progress. Sometimes people bring me their diaries, and I see that their lives are very pure. They also put in two hours of meditation daily. And yet there’s little or no progress. I told them: “If your diary is correct, then you should have gone to the third plane.”

Do you see? Do you follow me? If our lives are quite flawless, why should we not progress, especially after putting in time for meditation? If it is due to the wrong way of doing the practice, involving breathing or this and that, it should be set right.

We deceive our own selves, I tell you. Whatever you remember, put it down in the diary. Try to think of every thought that struck you, not what your body did. Like a very hard taskmaster, I tell you, don’t spare yourself. As you don’t spare your enemy, don’t spare yourself. This is the most dangerous serpent in the form of a friend. He will deceive you. He will try to retard your progress and keep you led away to the negative things – to attachment to the outside things that will retard you from going on the way. And then, instead of seeing shortcomings within our own selves, we begin to doubt the Master. This is the work of the mind. He will do it. At least you see that there’s Light and there’s Sound. That much you see. Then why not progress further wonderfully? There’s something wrong.

Question: Master, what if you may have meditated when you became ill or you’ve been in the hospital, and you come back and you can’t fill in the diary? Or take me. Suppose I was in the hospital and I could probably meditate 12 or 15 hours, even while I was resting in the hospital. But suppose when I came home and was recuperating – I mean, you can’t go back to pick it up because you haven’t had the paper with you, so you leave it blank because you don’t want to put in this time.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: That’s all right. If for some reason or other you cannot complete your diary correctly, but you’re watching your life, then you must be progressing, too. Sickness gives you more time for meditation. Does it not? If you are putting in more time and there are no flaws, then you must have more progress. Is it not so? In this case you have not filled it in on account of your eyes not working; that has limited you. But the eyes won’t always be like that.

Question: No, with the eye I couldn’t meditate at all – I couldn’t move the eyeball.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: That’s all right. That’s explaining it all right. But still you could hear the Sound.

Question: Yes, that came in very clear, even without doing anything.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: That’s only a temporary, short period of difficulty that we have sometimes. Moreover, I tell you, no matter how painful it may be, if you are trained in a way to control your attention, the pain won’t affect you. That is when you’re developed. Feeling comes only when the attention is there. For example, when you have to have an injection, if you just control your attention, it is not so pinching, not so painful.

Question: Master, I have another question: it joins on what you were saying.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: Yes, yes, most welcome.

Question: You say how our minds can deceive us and lead us away from the direction. Yet one does not want to enter into this as a purely emotional experience. Well, then how am I to come to decide, to judge? I have to use my mind.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: You’ll get help! You’ll get help.

Question: I see. But then, earlier you told me I must not expect to be able to understand and rationalize everything.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: Yes, intellectually you must grasp the theory. The work that has to be done by a learned man and an unlearned man is the same: you have to withdraw your attention from outside, still your mind, still your body and analyze yourself from the body. That’s a practical thing. A learned man says, “Why should I withdraw my attention? What result will I get?” There are two men: one is learned, the other is unlearned. If you order them, “Go up; go up the stairs,” the learned man says, “Well, how many steps are there? Well, if I reach such and such place, what will happen? If my foot slips, then who will save me?” He will consider so many things. The man who is unlearned, he’ll run up.

A learned man must understand, for only then will he start. The other does not need all that botheration, I tell you. He will go ahead at once.

Two men, one learned, the other unlearned, went to a Master to be put on the way. The Master told the learned man, “I’ll charge you a double fee.” And to the other man who was unlearned, he said, “I’ll charge you only a single fee.” The learned man said, “Oh, I know so much, I’m so learned, why are you charging me a double fee?” The Master told him, “Well, I have to first make you unlearned and then you will do it.”

Both have to do the same thing. The difference lies only in that a learned man who has inner experience will explain it in so many ways. Even an unlearned man who goes up, takes you up. He may not be able to quote from so many past Masters or draw so many inferences, but he will give you this thing, and he will quote only from the vocabulary of the environment of which he is in command. Christ spoke in the parable of the farmer who sows seeds: the seeds that fall on stony ground don’t grow; those that fall in the hedges grow, but are retarded; those that fall on the prepared ground will grow.

Consider how he even quotes this example. Masters never were educated in any college or university. Do you know in which college Christ read or Guru Nanak read or Prophet Mohammed read? Do you know of any college? I don’t think so. It is an awakening from inside. They see. It is not a matter of inferences, feelings or emotions: it is a matter of seeing. They see, and they make others see.

Question: Master, may I ask a question?

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: Yes, surely, like an attorney. Even God is afraid of an attorney, I tell you. (laughter)

Question: Master, before I ask it …

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: No, no, you are most welcome. I’m just – I’ll tell you a story later on …

Question: The Master is a great scholar as we know.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: Is it? (laughter)

Question: I’m sure His academic attainments have not thwarted His spiritual path. And therefore I would say that intellectual accomplishments can very often be helpful.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: Intellectual attainment is the garland of flowers around the neck of a practical man. He will explain things in so many ways. Whatever way he takes up, he will tell you something to prove it: at the level of common sense, too. But a learned man without any experience is something like a library only. There may be so many things in the brain; but to have libraries there cannot give you in your brain any practical experience. Learning is good, you see; I’m not denouncing it.

Question: Well, now, I’m going to take the risk of asking a second question.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: All right, come on, please.

Question: Which probably is an intellectual question, but it bothers me.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: Well, I will answer it to the best I know how.

Question: And it is prompted by the discussion of this sister over here on Yogananda. Now Yogananda was a great yogi. And in the Master’s book, The Crown of Life – the Master touches on this very subject in pointing out the highest plane of the yogis. And then he goes on to discuss four additional planes: Sach Khand and the three higher planes beyond that. It would be very helpful to me, Master, if you would touch on the subject and tell us a little about those four planes.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: I tell you. You would like to know about those planes from where – from the yogis’ point of view? From which point of view?

Question: These are the four planes that the Master discusses which are above the highest plane of the yogis.

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: I tell you. There are stages of yogis, too. Some are yogis, some are yogiraj or yogishwar: there are two stages of yogis. Yogis generally go to the first plane – Sahasrar or Sahansdal Kamal. A yogishwar goes to the third plane and dips into the beyond a bit. And the Sant is one who reaches Sat Naam, the true home of the Father, or true Father, you might say. There is also the Param Sant who transcends even those three higher planes and becomes one with the Wordless. These are the stages. There are many people belonging to the first stage and some to the second or third. There are few who really have transcended beyond the three. Those who are regularly in the fourth plane are called Sants. The fourth plane is divided: some people mingle it into one, some into two. The true plane of Sach Khand – whatever it is called – is the stage of full effulgence of the wordless God into expression. And in the further stages there is absorption: Alakh, Agam, Anami, Soami, Radha Soami, or Nirala, or Maha Dayal, or whatever they are called. That is the stage of the highest, termed Param Sant. The Satsang path is that, you might say, of the Param Sant. So that’s the difference.

Question: Now my limited intellect can almost picture Sach Khand, which the Master describes as pure spirit.

But then the Master goes on to describe three planes above the planes of Sach Khand, which itself is pure spirit, and that’s hard for me to …

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: No, no. Mark the difference in the words that I’m using. I’ve said that Sat Naam is the full expression of the wordless state of God: He is fully expressed. In the higher planes, the soul goes on being absorbed until it comes to the wordless state, where there’s no Light nor Sound. Those are the above stages. Ultimately, in the wordless stage, there’s no expression of Light or Sound. That comes only when it comes into expression. There are different divisions, you might say, of Sach Khand: Alakh, Agam and the ultimate, wordless state that is called Nameless One, Maha Dayal Radha Soami, and by so many other names.

Question: Well, then, Master, would Agam be the first stage of manifestation?

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: Generally, that power which is in full expression takes the form of a Guru. He is the Sat Naam working within the human pole. Then Sat Naam comes to absorb you further. So a Guru also has stages: Guru, Gurudev and Satguru. A Guru is working at the human pole, but it is God in him who is working: he is conscious. Gurudev manifests when you rise above the physical body.

That works in the second to fourth planes, up till the fifth, to absorb you in the Sat Naam. Gurudev means “The Radiant Form of the Master.” Then Sat Naam is the true Satguru. That absorbs you by stages: Alakh, Agam, like that. So there are stages of the Guru, too.

Everybody is called a “guru,” but Guru is the name given to such a person at whose human pole God is working for the guidance of mankind. Sometimes He is loving; sometimes He says: “All right; don’t do it,” as an average man would. But inside He is fully conscious; He gives you the right guidance. And when you rise above the physical body, He comes to you in the Radiant Form, called Gurudev. Gurudev means “Effulgent Guru,” you might say.

That guides you in the higher planes – the second, third and fourth – and absorbs you in the Sat Naam; and the Sat Naam further absorbs you in the wordless state. The further stages are of the Param Sant – going into the Param Sant state. But people generally make no difference: they say everybody is a Guru. Do you follow me?

These things are given in the scriptures, but they are not differentiated. That’s the pity. We are not convinced unless we begin to see for our own selves.

There was one devotee named Indra Mati, who lived in the time of Kabir. She went to the fifth plane and saw Sat Purush as Kabir. She told him, “Well, Kabir, if you were Sat Naam yourself, why didn’t you tell me before?” How many are there, even now, who think Master is a Master? When everything goes all right, according to your own wishes, you say, “Oh, Master is great; Master is greater than God.” And if anything goes against your wishes: “Oh, what kind of Master is that?” The flaw may be lying within you or you’re not putting in regular time for meditation. And you say, “Oh, Master has failed.” You are incompetent.

Question: As a matter of fact, Master, I don’t want to take any time; but very apropos of that, two years ago, when I was still in New York and attending the Satsangs there, I slipped on the ice and broke my left arm. One of the persons attending the Satsang in New York said to me (I don’t think she was initiated, but she had been coming there), “Why, I can’t understand how you broke your arm when you’ve got a Master.” And I said, “Well, it could have been a worse thing He saved me from – from breaking my back. I got rid of karma fairly easily.” But she was quite indignant: how could anything happen to me when I had a Master?

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: Master is there to wind up your actions – to wind up the whole account, like a bank which fails. Winding up, I tell you. The many things that are here brought into fruit sometimes make your soul stronger, too, and they lose all pinching effects.

When you become selfless – well you are saved. That’s all.

Question: Well, I was very grateful. I said, “Well, it could have been my back or my hip, but it was just my arm. I got off very lightly.”

Sant Kirpal Singh Ji: When a man is initiated, he should go on sincerely with it. He has no concern with anyone except the Master. Go on. When you get something to start with, what more proof is required? As you progress inside, you will be more convinced. But when we have a little progress, we sometimes are puffed up: “Oh, I know this” – then do it; “I tell you, look here, do that thing; for if you don’t, I’ll curse you.” And what is the result? The whole science is lost, I tell you. And such people become a defamation to the teachings. Go on with it. Any difficulty that you have will be solved of itself, unasked for.

NOTE BY RUSSELL PERKINS: The following paragraph from the Sar Bachan, quoted by Master Kirpal in a footnote on page 111 of his book, Baba Jaimal Singh:

“If anyone is initiated by a perfect Satguru, having love and faith in Him, serving Him devotedly, and before he has advanced far the Guru should depart, he should continue to contemplate His Form and perform all the exercises prescribed by the Guru. The same Satguru, in the same Radiant Form, will continue to carry on the work as He had commenced it, and will carry it on to final success, as if He were still in the body.”

The whole section of the book (pages 110 and 111) in which this note occurs is very interesting and comforting, and Master’s teaching on this subject is expressed perhaps more clearly here than anywhere else.